Posts by Jonathan Drake

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

Good points. I was engrossed in another thread earlier. I'll still look into this though, see what the rest of the New Testament says. It COULD be that this is only referring to Jesus IN PERSON. Possibly not though. I'll get out the strongs concordance and see what I can find.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

You are the same an every other preaching christian.

Wrong. Every other christian would tell you to enjoy hell and say hi to a relative they hate. Feel free to review my posts and reach the proper conclusion of what I actually did and said, because I feel preaching is wrong, and I feel saying such things as they would to you now is wrong. I've said so many times across this board.

just because I will not allow a statement to go uncorrected doesn't mean I care whether or not the person accepts the reality of what the book says. I positioned the verses I did expecting there to be rebuttal, but ultimately how a person feels about it is up to them. I have not pressed my views on anyone and in fact took steps to avoid it. I've only responded with verse quotation. If you think it says something other than the words on the page that's your call, and you might be right. I just won't agree, and I have no idea how some who have posted here have reached the conclusions they have - but it's their conclusion to reach.

With all due respect to all of you, if you don't want to hear an opposing view, then keep yours to yourself. Not everyone will agree with you, and you just have to deal with it.

i don't agree with cofty nor does cofty with me. And I'm okay with that, it's the nature of people. Same with Simon. But viv, you do in fact back pedal and reverse yiur stand and say people said things they didn't and that you didn't when you did and it's exhausting and aggravating. So let's you and I just stay away from each other once it is clear we cannot agree- and here we will not.

I did not try to tell anyone what any verse I quoted means, I quoted it and it spoke for itself. I do not appreciate being slandered as interpreting scriptures my own way as I do not do this - I take them as they are and put a lot of effort into placing them in their proper context to understand their cultural references and the events that surrounded them. I do not just say they mean whatever I want, because if I did that I'd still be a JW and I am not.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

according to you

Wrong. im not doing this with you again. Your putting words in my mouth, I positioned the verses TO SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. I have no idea how many more times I'll have to say this to people before it is actually understood. Think what you want about them, I don't care, and convincing you of any particular view isn't my job or desire. Continuing to respond and convince me, however, of something IS preaching, which I have not done.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

You are promoting your version of Jesus. Every Christian does that. You are picking the parts you like and ignoring the rest and telling us they've got it all wrong while telling us your version is right. That's pretty much exactly what Christianity is...

I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore, but I will respond to this. I have not promoted any view of Jesus except specifically, word for word, what the bible and Quran say about him. I did not interpret it to mean anything, I did not ignore anything it says. I positioned a scripture to speak for itself. If you think the scripture is saying something other than it's words do, we disagree and I don't mind that. But as I've said, I don't care whether any of you believe it, and getting you to is not my responsibility. But where I see the verses being positioned incorrectly, I will put them back in context saying what they are truly saying. Whether you accept that the book disagrees with your preconceived ideas, as well as the majority of the faith claiming the book as its own - is not my concern. I only care about representing the text as saying what it does so that an informed decision is made, if you still think it says something it doesn't in the face of word for word proof of otherwise - that's fine. I don't care.

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

The verses in the bible don't necessarily state you have to believe in Christ to be saved that I can recall. It does say that if you confess faith in him you will be saved, but that doesn't necessarily mean we can assume if you don't you will die. The judgement is left up to christ to determine if the person is good and righteous.

Ill have to research this to see what I can find, but off the top of my head I can think of no scripture that says if you don't believe in Christ this automatically means death. I'm fairly certain that's a religious invention because the bible does say christs blood bought everyone whether they believe or not, so I think the difference would be if you knew what the bible says and denied it because you enjoy being a bad person. But how many people actually look for reasons to do bad stuff because they enjoy it?

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

Oh it's spelled differently. That was an honest question btw, I wasn't trying to be an ass or anything.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm not sure how Ive preached to anyone. I've just put forward verses showing yours and others statements about what the Quran says is false. I didn't need to say it was false, the book did it for me.

I also didn't start the discussion, I replied to others comments.

further, evidence was never being discussed, merely what a book says and doesn't say. Neither yourself or anyone else has put forward any historical evidence or facts or references to such - I, on the other hand, have provided numerous quotes from the book in question. I have done so not with any aim to preach, I don't care what you guys believe. But the discussion began with misunderstood statements about the Quran which I corrected with the context and other verses. I would argue, if the arguement is to be made that preaching has been done, that some of you have also been preaching to me that it's all make believe. But you've done so with merely your opinions and misquotes.

I will gladly read any evidence you wish me to, once its been provided.

I also apologize if I've come across preachy, it wasn't my goal at all.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

No, the believers of the bible and quran chose not to agree and also chose to avoid the word "possession" while fundamentally relying on the concept for their beliefs and to peddle their belief that it is inspired.

Please, tell us more about how spirit creatures wrote books. Why can't they now send tweets or write facebook posts to clarify things?

It wasn't a matter of choice, the explanation of, "inspiration" is clear in scripture. And it doesn't agree, and is easy to comprehend with the full harmony of whatever example you want to use from either book.

As far as your last statement, it's because clarification is unnecessary. The bible is no longer outlawed amd locked away by the church, anyone can read it and see what it says. The question then becomes will they except it's message or what someone else says its message is?

if a person denies this message, Christians teach they will die. I disagree, this is not what it says. It says the judge is Christ, and that all those who do good and are righteous will be saved. I would argue for example, that persons such as yourself have very valid personal reasons for hating religion and for deciding to have nothing to do with it or its sources. However this does not make you unrighteous, and it is not condemning you especially because what you've done, really, is deny the false christs - which is actually what it directs us to do. Any spite you feel toward the bible is not without reason, and is because of those people.

So unlike most who call themselves Christian, I feel, personally, that if I can see and understand yours as well as likely others reasons for dismissing everything loosely connected to religion, certainly an immortal, just judge called the Prince of Peace can. I have many friends who are genuinely good people who feel similarly to both yourself and cofty, and of these friends I would say if God could judge them unrighteous then we are all royally screwed.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

So, what, specifically, do you believe about the Bible? That it contains truth? Some truth, all truth? That's it's a collection of interesting stories? What specific truth did Mohammed teach about the Bible? Do you believe Adam literally existed and that angels literally exist and bowed to him?

I believe that dissecting the books and trying to argue they are untrue for any number of reasons both misses the point of the message and is almost always not factual anyway and merely shows a persons misunderstanding of it.

Thus, so far as I am able, I will defend the books by providing the proper context of what happened and any factual information I can. But I will not argue about whether something happened or not so far as our discoveries have no way of showing, because to do so misses the point entirely.

Thus, in answer to your question. I will say I believe Jesus was the messiah, that he willingly took this role, and that he died and was raised to heaven. Because I believe this i strive to live up to his example and direction to love, be tolerant, amd treat people as I wish to be treated whether I agree with their choices or not. I will not judge them or think badly of them, and will seek to make amends whenever I do since it will happen despite my best efforts. all this I will do because I do not miss the point of the message. I also believe that something bad will likely happen to those who have assumed the role of a messenger or Christ, as per Jesus stating it would. And that all religions following a man today are false. In the end, what I believe, is that people like you and I and others here who have renounced our religions because of their clear hypocrisies and lies will be saved, as well as all those who are in the religions honestly trying to find truth, as well as all those whomever else the judge finds is a good and righteous person, regardless of any errors they may have made.

and I believe this because it is, in fact, what the bible says - and, so far, the Quran as well.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@simon

inspiration is explained as either 1 of 2 things:

1: in the nt, spirit merely assisted the writers to remember things that already happened. No posession.

2. In the OT and in Revelation, Angels appeared telling the writer what to write. No posession.

So I do not understand your idea about posession, I dont know where it comes from but the bible doesn't agree, and nor does the Quran.

i should also clarify that I meant I'm trying to disprove it in my own studies, not here. Here I will defend what I have read of it so far as a can recall it as long as I have not disproved it.